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#1 dido295

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:54 AM

Why do people hate the EOC so much? It was a good update for combat. Clicking was NOT FUN. At least combat is more interactive now.

I played the game for 8 years and I really like this update. Combat is so much more interesting now.

I don't see why people hate change so much. You NEED to learn how to adapt. You HAVE to.

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#2 Scott

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:02 AM

You can ask the same thing about any update. People just hate change, that's all there is to it. I agree with you, combat was in desperate need of a refresh. When you think about fighting a deadly monster, you expect it to be one of the most intense parts of the game. Instead you clicked once and waited for it to die. Where was the fun in that?

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#3 ToeJam

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:04 AM

View Postdido295, on 20 November 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Why do people hate the EOC so much? It was a good update for combat. Clicking was NOT FUN. At least combat is more interactive now.

I played the game for 8 years and I really like this update. Combat is so much more interesting now.

I don't see why people hate change so much. You NEED to learn how to adapt. You HAVE to.

I agree with you in part... but then an element of your argument is flawed:

People are not adverse to change... they play different games all of the time. The problem here is that a game which has attracted thousands upon thousands of players for 'what it was' has done a back flip and changed into something else to try and get a new crowd of players to play or to appease newly enticed players who may not have the attention span regardless of Jagex's vision... and perhaps a (large) proportion of old school players like Scott who are quite happy to go with the flow/relish the chance to try something new without having to grind from scratch.

It is not that people don't like change as such... it's that they don't like things being 'fixed' when they weren't broken. That is the perspective taken by players who are annoyed with these updates.

Saying that, what is one man's rubbish is another man's treasure... so there will be a shed load of players who are over the moon with the EOC. It's all about personal preference. The big argument of 'you just can't handle change' is a crock of crap though and just down to a lack of being able to put yourself in the shoes of players who see the game/enjoy the game in a different way to you.

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#4 dido295

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:12 AM

View PostToeJam, on 20 November 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

View Postdido295, on 20 November 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Why do people hate the EOC so much? It was a good update for combat. Clicking was NOT FUN. At least combat is more interactive now.

I played the game for 8 years and I really like this update. Combat is so much more interesting now.

I don't see why people hate change so much. You NEED to learn how to adapt. You HAVE to.

I agree with you in part... but then an element of your argument is flawed:

People are not adverse to change... they play different games all of the time. The problem here is that a game which has attracted thousands upon thousands of players for 'what it was' has done a back flip and changed into something else to try and get a new crowd of players to play or to appease newly enticed players who may not have the attention span regardless of Jagex's vision... and perhaps a proportion of old school players like Scott.

It is not that people don't like change as such... it's that they don't like things being 'fixed' when they weren't broken. That is the perspective taken by players who are annoyed with these updates.

Saying that, what is one man's rubbish is another man's treasure... so there will be a shed load of players who are over the moon by the EOC. It's all about personal preference. The big argument of 'you just can't handle change' is a crock of crap though and just down to a lack of being able to put yourself in the shoes of players who see the game/enjoy the game in a different way to you.

I suppose so. WHat REALLY ticks me off is when people say they hate the EOC and they haven't even tried it yet. I HATE players like those.

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#5 Magick

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:25 AM

View Postdido295, on 20 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

I suppose so. WHat REALLY ticks me off is when people say they hate the EOC and they haven't even tried it yet. I HATE players like those.
And where exactly did you find these players? It seems to be the ridiculous argument that has been going around for some months now; how do you know they have not tried it? This is just based on an assumption.

So far, there have been only two points being used to belittle those who are against the EoC:
  • You have not tried it.
  • You hate change.
:mellow:

None of which are hardly ever valid.

Edited by Magick, 20 November 2012 - 11:28 AM.

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#6 dido295

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:28 AM

View PostMagick, on 20 November 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

View Postdido295, on 20 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

I suppose so. WHat REALLY ticks me off is when people say they hate the EOC and they haven't even tried it yet. I HATE players like those.
And where exactly did you find these players? It seems to be the ridiculous argument that has been going around for some months now; how do you know they have not tried it?

Many people posted on the forums "What about the players who haven't tried the beta. Let us vote too" .

Why should they vote on EOC if they haven't even tried it?

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#7 Magick

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:31 AM

View Postdido295, on 20 November 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

View PostMagick, on 20 November 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

View Postdido295, on 20 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

I suppose so. WHat REALLY ticks me off is when people say they hate the EOC and they haven't even tried it yet. I HATE players like those.
And where exactly did you find these players? It seems to be the ridiculous argument that has been going around for some months now; how do you know they have not tried it?

Many people posted on the forums "What about the players who haven't tried the beta. Let us vote too" .

Why should they vote on EOC if they haven't even tried it?
I have addressed this previously, so I will just link my post: http://forums.zybez..../#entry15128844

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#8 dido295

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:38 AM

How

View PostMagick, on 20 November 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

View Postdido295, on 20 November 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

View PostMagick, on 20 November 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

View Postdido295, on 20 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

I suppose so. WHat REALLY ticks me off is when people say they hate the EOC and they haven't even tried it yet. I HATE players like those.
And where exactly did you find these players? It seems to be the ridiculous argument that has been going around for some months now; how do you know they have not tried it?

Many people posted on the forums "What about the players who haven't tried the beta. Let us vote too" .

Why should they vote on EOC if they haven't even tried it?
I have addressed this previously, so I will just link my post: http://forums.zybez..../#entry15128844

How is it bias? There is an option saying "I don't like it."

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#9 Panicking

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:38 AM

Well i played EoC and I still don't get it so not really my cup of tea rs anymore

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#10 dido295

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:42 AM

View Postpanickings, on 20 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Well i played EoC and I still don't get it so not really my cup of tea rs anymore

Fair enough. Your opinion. What's wrong with using momentum though?

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#11 ToeJam

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:51 AM

The other thing you have to realize (specifically to do with Zybez forums) is that a high percentage of traffic up to now has come from PVP'ers... specifically those involved in clan wars (wilderness based). A lot are not happy with the single/multi toggle so the feedback you're likely to get on this thread could well be skewed compared to many other fansite forums.

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#12 Magick

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:05 PM

View Postdido295, on 20 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

How is it bias? There is an option saying "I don't like it."
If you do not see how it is biased, then I cannot make it any easier for you to understand than that -- but, take my word for it, it was biased.

Edited by Magick, 20 November 2012 - 12:12 PM.

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#13 dido295

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:17 PM

View PostMagick, on 20 November 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

View Postdido295, on 20 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

How is it bias? There is an option saying "I don't like it."
If you do not see how it is biased, then I cannot make it any easier for you to understand than that -- but, take my word for it, it was biased.

No. You had an option of saying " I don't like it." I don't see how it's bias. Yes there were multiple yes options but you could still pick no.

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#14 Nott Vaengr

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:28 PM

In a way, this is psych 101.  People like to feel comfortable and secure, no matter what your age.  Any change can be an analogy to a child growing up and that has to include lots of changes, from their physical body to how they interact with other people to how they handle their own mental and emotional maturation.  Most people handle it well and some don't.

When change is imposed upon them, those who are unable or unwilling to adapt rally against it for a variety of reasons or justifications.

EOC is an imposed change and so people are going to either be willing to change, grow, and adapt with it and will either like it and continue playing or hate it and give it up.  Those unable to to adapt will either quit, either loudly or quietly depending upon their personality, or stay in the game and complain within.

EOC is here to stay. Jagex has spent many months on it, encouraged feedback, and I am sure will still have some tweaking to do as players find problems or loopholes.  They are going to abandon it.

You just either grow up and adapt or be left behind.
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#15 Magick

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:34 PM

View Postdido295, on 20 November 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

View PostMagick, on 20 November 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

View Postdido295, on 20 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

How is it bias? There is an option saying "I don't like it."
If you do not see how it is biased, then I cannot make it any easier for you to understand than that -- but, take my word for it, it was biased.

No. You had an option of saying " I don't like it." I don't see how it's bias. Yes there were multiple yes options but you could still pick no.
I think you need to re-read my post, because I did not mention anything to do with how the voting options were designed.

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#16 Kathy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:36 PM

View PostToeJam, on 20 November 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

View Postdido295, on 20 November 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Why do people hate the EOC so much? It was a good update for combat. Clicking was NOT FUN. At least combat is more interactive now.

I played the game for 8 years and I really like this update. Combat is so much more interesting now.

I don't see why people hate change so much. You NEED to learn how to adapt. You HAVE to.

I agree with you in part... but then an element of your argument is flawed:

People are not adverse to change... they play different games all of the time. The problem here is that a game which has attracted thousands upon thousands of players for 'what it was' has done a back flip and changed into something else to try and get a new crowd of players to play or to appease newly enticed players who may not have the attention span regardless of Jagex's vision... and perhaps a (large) proportion of old school players like Scott who are quite happy to go with the flow/relish the chance to try something new without having to grind from scratch.

It is not that people don't like change as such... it's that they don't like things being 'fixed' when they weren't broken. That is the perspective taken by players who are annoyed with these updates.

Saying that, what is one man's rubbish is another man's treasure... so there will be a shed load of players who are over the moon with the EOC. It's all about personal preference. The big argument of 'you just can't handle change' is a crock of crap though and just down to a lack of being able to put yourself in the shoes of players who see the game/enjoy the game in a different way to you.

No, you don't get it - that's not the big picture of it all. You forget that Jagex is a company who competes against other rivals such as Blizzard Entertainment. While many things are not broken, as a business you have to keep in mind that if you do not continuously find ways to improve your product to make a marketing edge, someone else ( a rival ) will make a product or service that will put your business in jeopardy. For example,  a company called Netflix came up with popular service for movie rentals that put the existing Block Buster movie rental chain almost out of business, because Block Buster did not improve their service by removing needless fees. In Marketing 101 classes - which I have taken, a reality is that if you do not obsolete your product or service by reinventing it by a upgrade, change, or different format, someone else will come out with a new product and make your product or service obsolete. And you will loose your customer base for making money to stay in business.

Microsoft is a perfect example of a company that does this. Im still using WinXP, but by 2014 - Microsoft will no longer provide software support or upgrades for it, not because there is anything wrong with it ( it works fine. ) its becuase they are focusing their resources on their latest product Win7 ( or their next version ) to make sure that they have the edge over Apple's OS. Back to my original argument....

Sure I don't like changes in software that work perfectly fine in the first place, by newer versions by the same company , like Jagex has done. Things like this happen all the time in business. Also, it happens the business market has incorporated the global business market that is online. Jagex is British and Blizzard is American - and the rest is details, details, .... details!

What would happen if Jagex did not make these changes or any changes that you have seen? Their product would look like what it first started long ago. Thank god - I am not playing that version because it looks ugly. I don't want to even know what it sounded like either (probably like some broken alarm clock dying ). You can find evidence of RS changes.....

Look at the timeline on Jagex's website showing the history of screen snapshots of how their game changed to what it is now, and you tell me if the first version of what RS started out as, is what you would like to be playing now? You dont like it, right? I dont like it either! Good - deal with change - take it as a sign of evolution for good things to come. Darwin's Theory of Survival of the Fittest, applies to business too ( it applies to everything that changes ). Sure there are mistakes in every upgrade - but they are also fixed too.

If we didn't learn to adapt and change, we wouldn't have evolved to what we have now. We would be like the people in 3rd world countries, like in Africa, running around with spears to hunt food and dying from diseases and famine ( no computers at all would exist ! ).

You know, if its really too bad for you and others of the same ilk who can't deal with the changes of RS - then quit paying for their service, stop playing the game, delete the game from your computer, and get out of here. We don't need to know why, or what for - just silently disappear, please.

---

Now I was hoping that this was a post about how to learn the new system - because I want to learn how to use the new combat system. Who is with me on this? I went to the Combat tutorial place in Lumbridge and got stuck with how the controls work. Im going to log on to Jagex website to see if they have a detailed document available.

Zybez staff - you got your work cut out to modify your website, again.

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#17 ToeJam

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:33 PM

View PostKathy, on 20 November 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Spoiler

That was one hell of rant and completely missed what I was saying ;-) I neither said that I was for or against the updates so thank you for putting words into my mouth :lmao: I actually agree that Jagex's needs to adapt and have said so many many times in posts before this... I was however arguing against the view point that players who are not happy with specific updates can't handle change. They can... it's just that the updates in particular are reducing their level of enjoyment in a game that prior to their introduction is what lured them into the game in the first place.

Thank you though for your rabid froth and condescending manner whilst showing an inability to read... it made me chuckle :-)

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#18 Kathy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:29 PM

View PostToeJam, on 20 November 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

View PostKathy, on 20 November 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Spoiler

That was one hell of rant and completely missed what I was saying ;-) I neither said that I was for or against the updates so thank you for putting words into my mouth :lmao: I actually agree that Jagex's needs to adapt and have said so many many times in posts before this... I was however arguing against the view point that players who are not happy with specific updates can't handle change. They can... it's just that the updates in particular are reducing their level of enjoyment in a game that prior to their introduction is what lured them into the game in the first place.

Thank you though for your rabid froth and condescending manner whilst showing an inability to read... it made me chuckle :-)

No, I read everything you wrote, and read between the lines to find out that you come across to me as a recalcitrant person in relationship with Jagex.

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#19 ToeJam

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:16 AM

View PostKathy, on 20 November 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

No, I read everything you wrote, and read between the lines to find out that you come across to me as a recalcitrant person in relationship with Jagex.

Interesting use of the word 'recalcitrant'.
So, because I am able to weigh up two sides of the argument and express that both are valid for the groups involved; in this case, those for and those against EOC or certain elements of the EOC… I have an attitude and rally against authority?

It is not as black and white as you seem to want to make it out to be. Players of RS have invested a lot of time and energy into the game, so for many that are unhappy with this or that update… quitting is not exactly a no brainer. Many will complain but they will try to adapt and play regardless… does that mean they are not allowed to moan though? Was it not the skillers who moaned about the wilderness that influenced Jagex to make dramatic changes to the dynamics of combat (single/multi toggle)? Should they have just quit and stopped moaning? Or is that different and doesn’t suit your argument?

RS is incredibly diverse and it’s for that reason it draws in a large catchment of players… people enjoy/specialise in different aspects of the game and when Jagex make updates they are inevitably going to upset some players in the process. The game is often updated due to the comments/complaints of those with the biggest (collective) mouth.

Complaints are what drive the direction of RS in my opinion… so now that I think about it, many of the updates you personally enjoy were instigated by the recalcitrant.

Odd :-)

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#20 Kathy

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:23 PM

View PostToeJam, on 21 November 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

View PostKathy, on 20 November 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

No, I read everything you wrote, and read between the lines to find out that you come across to me as a recalcitrant person in relationship with Jagex.

Interesting use of the word 'recalcitrant'.
So, because I am able to weigh up two sides of the argument and express that both are valid for the groups involved; in this case, those for and those against EOC or certain elements of the EOC… I have an attitude and rally against authority?

It is not as black and white as you seem to want to make it out to be. Players of RS have invested a lot of time and energy into the game, so for many that are unhappy with this or that update… quitting is not exactly a no brainer. Many will complain but they will try to adapt and play regardless… does that mean they are not allowed to moan though? Was it not the skillers who moaned about the wilderness that influenced Jagex to make dramatic changes to the dynamics of combat (single/multi toggle)? Should they have just quit and stopped moaning? Or is that different and doesn’t suit your argument?

RS is incredibly diverse and it’s for that reason it draws in a large catchment of players… people enjoy/specialise in different aspects of the game and when Jagex make updates they are inevitably going to upset some players in the process. The game is often updated due to the comments/complaints of those with the biggest (collective) mouth.

Complaints are what drive the direction of RS in my opinion… so now that I think about it, many of the updates you personally enjoy were instigated by the recalcitrant.

Odd :-)

Well in the first place - I was and still am siding with the original poster - dildo295 because I agree with his statement, when you replied to his post , that is what prompted me to post my argument.

ToeJam - Here is where I disagree with you ...

In your response to the original poster, dildo295 - you made a statement that came across not as double sided argument for AND against but as an argument against the change EoC.
I am one of those many RS players that have played and invested in the game too. Long ago, I once took the position against some of the changes that RS did, but then I took at what has happened because of that and reconsidered my thoughts. In each change the game is easier and/or it makes more sense to use, many of the things that should have been implemented (holes in logic) when I first started playing RS (in 2009), finally got implemented in due time, NOT by RS players posting on Jagex's own forum. Jagex finally started looking at things to clean up the game here and there. That's when and where I changed my mind and thought that, I don't see anything wrong with these updates. To add, that's where I was opened minded to any future upgrades and changes that Jagex made because it benefited
my game play to enjoying RS. Yes, I had to adapt and change, to these changes, just as I will adapt to EoC. I have a side story on EoC,  because that idea is a confluence of two other ideas borrowed from another computer or console games).

In the dawn of time, in the eve before EoC, I was playing RS, and in the area of G.E. hearing so many other players complaining about it, like the end of the world was coming - over and over again, in so many ways, in so many flavors, in expressions in messages that could be printed out to make wall tapestries of profanity in exclamation. You think that's bad? On Jagex, date Nov 21 - I was streaming through Jagex forums, skimming messages of so many recalcitrant RS players. It toned from something like a child-like mentality in the body of a adult being - where messages conveyed a tantrum. Something like, my dog ran away and its all your fault, my cat hates me from all the screaming and yelling about EoC, the wall paper fell off the wall and hit me on the head from vibrations coming from the grinding of my teeth, you ruined my game, Pking is now meaningless, and etc. and etc. The ,"fingers" of these voiced messages all point at Jagex - like a sin was committed.

May I mention that long ago, at the last runefest that Jagex admitted to the fact that they were not listening to their players. That Jagex did not listen to any feedback. Therefore, I believe that Jagex only promotes the opinion of others - only when it benifits their side and is not of a recalcitrant disposition. They did a poll about EoC and concluded that 70% of the players agreed with EoC. Can numbers actually be that accurate when its not administered a party who is not arbitrary? Lets disregard this, and consider it completely unsubstantiated hearsay. This is what I think is really happening, in the following.

From my point of view, I think its Jagex trying to keep up with the rival competition so that the game doesn't become stagnant. Its not just rival companies such as Blizzard Entertainment , its also games that are like Rune Scape on game consoles. This is where my side story comes in.

Before I was into RS, I was playing Blizzard's computer game Diablo 1, which happens to have a row of hot keys numbered 1 thru 8 in the games GUI for the player to use things such as potions or scrolls. I recognized this immediately when I noticed the default number representation of the action bar which can be used to hot key abilities. The abilities, reminded me of the combo-key action hits used in the long ago, popular games called Mortal Combat and Street Fighter in game consoles. However, in RS this is called a ability, instead of having to press a special sequence of keys, in the context of the action bar - its just one key. Really nice, but not original (because I told you where the two ideas were first seen in my recollection ) - but for Jagex it's a really important upgrade so they can draw more players from other diversities outside of their own.  This is why I said that Jagex has to obsolete their game or change its format so that its not obsolete by someone else such as Blizzard. If Jagex kept the same game style without improving it or changing it - Blizzard and/or any other rival company would make bargains to players to convert from RS to another game. That is the threat - without profit there is no business to continue paying for the business upkeep and you would not be playing RS at all, now.

Come to think of it , I think the top row keys of a keyboard have been the most popular means for hot keys. I used to play long ago, a game called Elite by David Braben and Ian Bell, which used the same idea. I never finished that game for some reason. Oh well...

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